AR with FFDShow doesn't work without reason

[PeterSt]

Background : http://www.theatertek.com/forums/sho...ack+bars+sides

Also looking at the last post in there, I can't believe this is taken for granted ...

Allo me to state that something stupid is going on here, causing lots of confusing in the mean time. And above all, unncessecary IMO.

With FFDShow (and resizing the resolution)

Whatever (combination of) settings, the AR within TT is wrong. Worst thing : this just needs unchecking of Lock Aspect Ratio (in the AR Editor) and you're done. Well, not completely, because at a Title Change you have to do it again (so that's a few times before the main movie starts).
Saving your own AR setting doesn't help for movies which weren't played under that setting, though it does help for movies where the settings were applied (clicked) once. Then next time for such a movie is auto-ok.
Note that selecting any of the pre-codes AR settings change the size / AR of the picture, all wrong ...
Also note that for those implied settings (in FFDShow) that no black bars at the sides appear, there's a fair chance that many of you think it's allright, looking at the many questions about people wanting to fill their 16:9 screens with 2.40 material anyway ...

Without FFDShow

Unchecking the Lock Aspect Ratio doesn't change a thing (this is good for a normal human being !).
Selecting any of the pre-coded AR settings doesn't change a thing (same).

Note though that the normal human being is the one who doesn't want to stretch his car wheels, hence he/she leaves everything how it should be.
That is, when the AR is auto-selected allright, which in just one case (movie) ever it was not for me. Then you are in kind of trouble, because whatever you do with normal sense, it won't change a thing.
The normal human being won't understand this.

Thus ...

Thus it is my conclusion that the default for Lock Aspect Ratio should be UNchecked. I really can't find anything wrong with that, combined with nothing changing anyway without FFDShow. Those using FFDShow (and changing the resolution) then can at last stuff in a dvd and play ...

Or do I miss something ?

Peter

[Vern Dias]

Or do I miss something ?

Most of this confusion is coming from a lack of understanding on how TT handles AR's and the challenges created by certain display environments.

Here is an explanation based on my experiences with TT:

Case 1. Display shape and the resoution being displayed on the display match. (Example: a 16x9 width x height device being fed 1280x720 or 1920 x 1080 with no anamorphic lens, No ffdshow resize) :

This is the default mode for TT. Leave the "Lock Aspect Ratio" setting checked.

Case 2a. Display shape and the resoution being displayed on the display do not match. (Example: a 16x9 width x height display device being fed 1440x1024 with no anamorphic lens, No ffdshow resize)

Case 2b. Display shape and the resoution being displayed on the display match, but an anamorphic lens is being used. (Example: a 2.35:1 screen using a 16x9 FP being fed 1920x1080 with anamorphic lens, No ffdshow resize)

Case 2c. ffdshow resize is being used. (Example: Any environment with ffdshow resize. Note: ffdshow has it's own set of AR controls that interact with TT.)

"Lock Aspect Ratio" setting must be unchecked. When and how you do this is CRITICAL! Immediately after installing TT for the first time and pressing play with a disc inserted, you need to go into the AR Editor, select, and turn off the "Lock Aspect Ratio" box and set the proper image size and centering on all 4 default AR's, as well as the "current media". You must press the save button after EACH of the 5 AR settings are modified and the "Lock Aspect Ratio" button is unchecked. The blue window will guide you to show the actual size of each of the AR's areas.

Since TT has no way of knowing the displays actual AR, the default, which works for case 1, (and should be the majority of cases) is to leave "Lock Aspect Ratio" checked for the 4 defult AR's created when TT installs.

Three very important points:

1. All custom AR's are derived from one of the 4 default AR's. If you don't get the default AR's configured correctly at the very start, don't expect any newly created AR's to carry the desired state of the "Lock Aspect Ratio" button.

2. When a DVD is played for the first time a record is written to the TheaterTek\TheaterTek DVD 2.0\Data\DVD Info.dat. This record contains the AR information selected for this title. If you play a bunch of DVD's and then change your video output resolution and/or default AR dettings the data in this file will now been invalid.

3. There is a file created by TT on install called TheaterTek\TheaterTek DVD 2.0\Data\Aspect Ratios.dat. This file contains the information that is used to control aspect ratios. Here is the file immediately after install:

// TheaterTek Aspect Ratios
"16:9" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 1
"Letterbox" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 1
"4:3" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 1
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 1

Things to note: The 4th and 5th entrys are the selected resolution of the video card when TT was installed. In this case, it was 1280 x 1024. Since my display on this PC is 1.6:1 (1920 x 1200) the very last 1 indicates the state of the "Lock Aspect Ratio" button.

I had to set this, there is no way for TT to accurately determine the AR of the display device, only the AR of the video cards current resolution.

After setting my video card to 1920x1200 and restarting TT, now we have 4 more AR entries created for the new resolution. NOTE: You have to go into the AR editor and uncheck the "Lock Aspect Ratio" button for these new default AR's as well.

// TheaterTek Aspect Ratios
"16:9" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 0
"4:3" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0
"16:9" 0 0 1920 1200 119 139 1801 1061 1
"Letterbox" 0 0 1920 1200 0 0 1920 1200 1
"4:3" 0 0 1920 1200 314 139 1598 1061 1
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1920 1200 0 60 1920 1140 1
Note: IF YOU CHANGE YOUR DISPLAY RESOLUTIONS YOU WILL HAVE TO RE_DO ALL YOUR AR DEFINITIONS! Or you will need to maintain multiple sets of definitions. The AR editor only displays those settings that match the current video card resolution.

Now I have added a custom 2.35:1A definition for use with ffdshow. Note that the "Lock Aspect Ratio" is '0' or off because I am now doing resizing in ffdshow. Note that this is a manual step, you will have to understand and make the proper decisions for all this AR stuff unless you are in a very vanilla environment with no ffdshow and a display AR that matches the video drivers resolution's AR.

// TheaterTek Aspect Ratios
"16:9" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 0
"4:3" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0
"16:9" 0 0 1920 1200 119 139 1801 1061 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1920 1200 0 0 1920 1200 0
"4:3" 0 0 1920 1200 314 139 1598 1061 0
16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1920 1200 0 60 1920 1140 0
"2.35:1A" 0 0 1920 1200 6 26 1914 1174 0

Once you get this all set up, you can backup this file and restore it at any time. As long as you use the update option of TT install to install a new release, this data will be preserved.

You can also save the DVD Info.dat and Media Info.dat files and restore them at any time. (But remember, any time you play a new title that data is added to one of these files. The files also contain the video control setting for each DVD or media file.

If you get into trouble, you can delete the contents of the TheaterTek\TheaterTek DVD 2.0\Data subdirectory and TT will create a fresh set of files. CAUTION!!!! You WILL lose all of your custom AR and DVD / media specific settings!!!

Summary:

The purpose of the "Lock Aspect Ratio" button is to preserve the correct relationship of image width to image height automatically, regardless of which of the resize buttons you select. This keeps wheels round, etc.

However, this only works if the video cards selected resolution AR matches the display devices AR. (Case 1) All other environments require YOU to maintain proper proportions when you define your AR settings.

Vern

[PeterSt]

Djeez Vern, what a story ... Much appreciated !
Something for in the manual ...

I had some sort of counter story in here already for 1 minute, then I saw something wrong and I deleted it. Will do it again tomorrow.

Peter

[PeterSt]

Ok. Now note I did NOT copy your suggestions nor did I try to understand to the character. Yet.
If you please allow me, *first* I'd really like to understand what's going on with the things I said. Because, so far, I don't see what's wrong with what I say/state. So I really don't want to be ignorant, nor do I want you to even think I am. So :

The case

In my story I'm case 2a and 2c :

Case 2a. Display shape and the resoution being displayed on the display do not match. (Example: a 16x9 width x height display device being fed 1440x1024 with no anamorphic lens, No ffdshow resize)

Case 2c. ffdshow resize is being used. (Example: Any environment with ffdshow resize. Note: ffdshow has it's own set of AR controls that interact with TT.)

Ad Case 2a (no FFDShow) :

Situation 1, Testjobs behind the TFT of 1280x1024 (5:4).

Output resolution of the video card is 1280x1024 (5:4 = 1.25).
I never in my TT life (until today) touched the AR Editor. No need to. Each movie of whatever AR goes in the proper AR to the screen, fullscreen or windowed. AR01 is an example of a 2.35 movie, windowed.

Situation 2, Running a movie on the 1400x1050 projector (4:3).

Output resolution is 1400x1050 (4:3 = 1.33).
Could copy the same attachment, though black bars (top/bottom) obviously are different (at full screen -> too difficult for me to make a screen copy of).

Situation 3, Running a movie on the 1920x1080 LCD (16:9).
Output resolution is 1920x1080 (16:9 = 1.78).
This one is shared with the same DVI output on the 6600GT and the (native) resolution is pre-selected by the display driver, like situation 2.

This is the default mode for TT. Leave the "Lock Aspect Ratio" setting checked.

Correct.

Ad Case 2c (FFDShow) :

All situations the same, though testing situation 1 from before is enough IMO :

The picture is defaulted to the AR of the output resolution, this case 1280x1024 = 1.25. The picture is squeezed sideways. See AR02 (don't look at the FFDShow noise ).
In FFDShow I resize x2 which is unrelated. Anyway this is PAL and 720x576, so resulting in 1440x1152 (see AR03).
"No aspect ratio correction" and "Keep original aspect ratio" (determined as 1.25 here) does not matter.

AR04 shows what's happening after Ctrl-E for the AR Editor (the AR01 in there is mine). I do nothing else but uncheck "Lock Aspect Ratio" and all is fine (AR06 -> NOTE : AR06 shows higher than AR01 which is a “windowed” anomalie. I checked fullscreen and there they are exactly the same, both measuring 2.34).

The deal

Vern, in fact I'm sure that you're aware of it, the AR of the movie is known. My Case 2a shows it, and my Case 2c shows it. I do nothing (but unchecking the Lock in 2c) and the AR gets ok.

If 50% of people are Case 2a, then 45% of people are Case 2c. Both is 95% and they can be allright at doing *nothing* as long as the default is "Unlocked" (I did not prove that in here for Case 2a but you'll believe me).

"Lock Aspect Ratio" setting must be unchecked. When and how you do this is CRITICAL! Immediately after installing TT for the first time and pressing play with a disc inserted, you need to go into the AR Editor, select, and turn off the "Lock Aspect Ratio" box and set the proper image size and centering on all 4 default AR's, as well as the "current media". You must press the save button after EACH of the 5 AR settings are modified and the "Lock Aspect Ratio" button is unchecked. The blue window will guide you to show the actual size of each of the AR's areas.

It is this part which confuses me a bit. On one hand it could be so that if I follow your guide right after install I'm ok. And I'd do it, no problem. On the other hand, you say that the blue window will guide to show the actual size of each of the AR's areas;

For the predefined (TT or user) ARs this will be true. However, look at the sequence AR04-AR06 again; AR04 shows the blue line just inside the TT window and it will be from the highlighted "Current Media", this time coincidentally equal to TT's window, whatever. Why should I care about this guide ? I know, when the guide would be 2.35 because I predefined it like that, I would see in advance how my movie-size will be. So what ? I press Unlock and no matter the blue window, after that I'm okay. This is 45% of cases (Case 2c) ... Why have it more difficult ?

Since TT has no way of knowing the displays actual AR, the default, which works for case 1, (and should be the majority of cases) is to leave "Lock Aspect Ratio" checked for the 4 defult AR's created when TT installs.

It could well be that here's the culprit;
So, true, TT can't know this. Not when it's not assumed that the resolution of the video card is the same as the display size. I won't argue that it might be "stupid" not to, but again IMO it's irrelevant. My TFT is 1280x1024, and coincidentally my video card is outputting the same, and the movie is fluently vertically centered in the 1024 height, itself having a height of 545 (not in the windowed example of course). I really don't know what this has to do with TT not knowing the AR of the display device, or the height for that matter.

// TheaterTek Aspect Ratios
"16:9" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 0
"4:3" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0

Things to note: The 4th and 5th entries are the selected resolution of the video card when TT was installed. In this case, it was 1280 x 1024. Since my display on this PC is 1.6:1 (1920 x 1200) the very last 0 indicates the state of the "Lock Aspect Ratio" button.

For the life of me, I can't understand. What the h*ck to do with Letterbox or 16:9 Pan&Scan ?
First, if there would be a crazy movie with an AR of 1.47, it would just show allright (Case 2a). Just like my 3:4 portrait photo will do okay. So second, I would never have the need to explicitly choose *any* AR, as long as the width is wide enough for my resolution (which it would be always as long as I set the resolution to match the display).

I have the feeling that your -by itself valueable- outlay may be outdated (edit : so maybe before all that was necessary ?). Something like "in the early days, when the width of the display is wider than the height (!) of the material implies, without your outlay (and settings) the picture would be horizontally stretched". Like my widescreen TV does at 4:3 broadcasts when set at 16:9. Compared with TT that TV is outdated ...

Edit : Case 2b will be a different story. Case 1 IMO is less relevant because movies won't fit the display anyhow, except for a few. And then still nothing is needed to do (so, Case 1 just requires no adjustments at this moment, and Locked or Not Locked doesn't matter).

Peter

[Vern Dias]

PeterSt,

I am sorry but I am having a lot of trouble following your post. I am guessing that your native language is not english?

I'll do my best, though.

Anyway this is PAL and 720x576, so resulting in 1440x1152 (see AR03).

Ok, let me present another topic. We talked about DAR (Display Aspect Ratio) , now lets talk about PAR or Pixel Aspect Ratio.

For PAL, as in for NTSC , DVD's use non-square pixels. For non-anamorphic PAL DVD, the PAR is 1.0925:1 or slightly more than square. For anamorphic DVD the PAR is 1.4568:1 or 1.4568 times wider than high. Note that by default, PC's use square 1:1 pixels.

In your second screen shot, it looks like something (ffdshow?) has converted those wide 1.4568 AR pixels into square pixels. TT knows you are playing a PAL 16x9 flagged DVD. It's preset AR (16x9) for 16x9 anamorphic PAL was calculated and saved when you installed TT based on the standard PAL PAR for 16x9 flagged DVD and your video cards selected resolution.

Now you have added ffdshow which has probably changed the pixel AR to square. Which goes back to what I said in my first post: You MUST set the 4 default AR's to properly represent your desired AR's immediately after you install TT. What I neglected to say, is that you must also be using the environment that you intend to use regularly. And, these settings are only valid as long as you don't change output resolutions.

In short, ffdshow changes the PAR which makes it impossible for TT to use the AR's calculated on installation.

So my statement

the blue window will guide to show the actual size

needs one more caveat:

The blue window will guide to show the actual size of each of the AR's areas as long as the user (or another filter) doesn't alter the PAR.

Two other questions that I picked up on:

What the h*ck to do with Letterbox or 16:9 Pan&Scan ?

16x9 Pan&Scan is a standard DVD flag that when set, allows the player to automatically pan and scan a 16x9 DVD. On a 4x3 display, it will extract the a 4x3 area out of the 16x9 frame. You will find it rarely used on actual program material, but commonly used for DVD menus.

Letterbox is a standard DVD flag used for letterboxed Non 16x9 DVD.

So in summary:

TT is working as designed. You just didn't have enough information to realize that. There is nothing to be "fixed" or "changed" in TT. There is no reason to change the default for the "Lock Aspect Ratio" button.

You are using ffdshow without understanding all the ramifications of doing so and without setting up the default AR's for the ffdshow environment. This precludes TT from automatically selecting the correct AR from the defaults that were created at install time. Since you have introduced software that alters the PAR, you are now responsible for correctly setting the default AR's to the proper values to work in your environment. This is no different than what I have to do to handle my anamorphic lens + ffdshow environment.

If you are going to run multiple environments (NTSC/PAL, multiple video devices, resolutions, DAR's) you will have to set up your own custom resolutions to handle all these environments. After you set each of these up, you may want to save the aspect ratio file for each environment.

The 4 default resolutions initially created by TT are only valid for an environment that uses matched display and video resolution AR's, and standard PARs.


I hope this helps.

Vern

[PeterSt]

Thanks again, and again stuff for in the manual.
Again valuable, but again I don't see where this applies to my situation. So now as brief as possible :

Why does it ONLY need uncheck "Lock Aspect Ratio" with FFDShow output ?

rephrase :

I touch nothing, I set nothing, I just hit an Unlock button and then all is okay. Why ?

rephrase :

There is a super-simple thing going on, so simple, I can't make it clear. It's about having to unlock some stuck AR in TT's AR Editor fed by FFDShow, and then all is fine. It doesn't even need ANY selection.




Addition :

The non-square pixels of FFDShow are a good idea, but the 1.25 FFDShow shows itself, are just about the 1280x1024 my monitor's AR is. It's picked up by FFDShow appearently (or the video cards resolution for that matter).

Maybe it helps if I repeat that I never had to touch the AR Editor before ? (with several resolutions applicable at the same time). You seem to state that one should carefully prepare for ARs and different resolutions. NOT TRUE !!! Not true with several attached (1x 6600GT) output resolutions (1280x1024, 1400x1050, 1920x1080 in my case), switched at the wink of the eye, DVI cables switching from one display to the other, name it.

So do I have a problem ? Noooo.
Well, yes, the stupid fact that the output of FFDShow needs to bring up a screen and press a cross. I know (know ) that can be avoided by "preparing" as you explained. But it's still not necessary.

Heeeeeelllp.

Thanks Vern

PS: Rephrase
Start TT. Start movie with FFDShow. Ctrl-E, click cross. Esc. Done.
Stupid.

Now I'll start tweaking the AR file.

[PeterSt]

You are using ffdshow without understanding all the ramifications of doing so and without setting up the default AR's for the ffdshow environment. This precludes TT from automatically selecting the correct AR from the defaults that were created at install time. Since you have introduced software that alters the PAR, you are now responsible for correctly setting the default AR's to the proper values to work in your environment. This is no different than what I have to do to handle my anamorphic lens + ffdshow environment.

If you are going to run multiple environments (NTSC/PAL, multiple video devices, resolutions, DAR's) you will have to set up your own custom resolutions to handle all these environments. After you set each of these up, you may want to save the aspect ratio file for each environment.

Vern, I saw you edited this text lateron. Good.
Let's try to put it the other way around : what you say in the above is not true.

This precludes TT from automatically selecting the correct AR from the defaults that were created at install time.
Pressing a cross doing the job which HAS NO CONTEXT at that time, IMO proves that what you say here is ... say ... unright.

And let's twist things upside down please (in order to let you be right !) :
I will do a fresh install of TT, all clean. Now you tell me what to do in order to prove what you mean. You determine the (AR) material and sequences, you determine which display I use for what and when, but I determine that each display is fed with it's native resolution (so 1280x1024for the TFT, 1400x1050 for the PJ and 1920x1080 for the LCD). I've no anamorphic lens, and afaik all my pixels are square everywhere.

Now OR this shows me what you mean and I can have a good sleep on it, OR it doesn't and I'll make photo's of the screens so you can measure (and I won't squeeze the pictures ) and I'll have a few beers extra during the Indy500 coming up in a few hours.
Note that this seems to imply that it will end up with the last. Nope. I don't trust myself for now but I can't believe you. As a matter of fact we seem to talk about different subjects (you said you didn't quite understand my post).

Now I'm anxious.
Peter

[PeterSt]

Originally Posted by PeterSt

Now I'll start tweaking the AR file.

So I gave myself a headstart. I changed all the Locks to Unlocks, no matter what it is in there. But FYI, here's the file after changing :

// TheaterTek Aspect Ratios
"16:9" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 0
"4:3" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0
"16:9" 0 0 1400 1050 0 131 1400 918 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1400 1050 0 0 1400 1050 0
"4:3" 0 0 1400 1050 0 0 1400 1050 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1400 1050 0 131 1400 918 0
"16:9" 0 0 1360 768 0 1 1360 766 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1360 768 0 0 1360 768 0
"4:3" 0 0 1360 768 0 0 1360 768 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1360 768 0 1 1360 766 0
"16:9" 0 0 640 480 0 60 640 420 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 640 480 0 0 640 480 0
"4:3" 0 0 640 480 0 0 640 480 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 640 480 0 60 640 420 0
"16:9" 0 0 627 391 0 19 627 371 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 627 391 0 0 627 391 0
"4:3" 0 0 627 391 0 0 627 391 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 627 391 0 19 627 371 0
"16:9" 0 0 1024 768 0 96 1024 672 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1024 768 0 0 1024 768 0
"4:3" 0 0 1024 768 0 0 1024 768 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1024 768 0 96 1024 672 0
"16:9" 0 0 1920 1080 0 0 1920 1080 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1920 1080 -319 -179 2559 1260 0
"4:3" 0 0 1920 1080 0 0 1920 1080 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1920 1080 0 0 1920 1080 0
"16:9" 0 0 160 31 0 -29 160 61 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 160 31 0 0 160 31 0
"4:3" 0 0 160 31 0 0 160 31 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 160 31 0 -29 160 61 0
"16:9" 0 0 1912 1080 0 2 1912 1077 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1912 1080 0 0 1912 1080 0
"4:3" 0 0 1912 1080 0 0 1912 1080 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1912 1080 0 2 1912 1077 0
"ar01" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0

Remember, apart from the last entry, I never touched the contents (nor looked at it).

In fullscreen now everything works as should (read : how I suggest it can). This is : "Have the Lock Aspect Ratio unlocked by default". That's what I did. I tested everything and all, and all still works (different AR movies etc.), but now the output of FFDShow is treated as should as well.

But now I come up with a bug.
With TT in a window it still doesn't work, and whatever it is that's feeding the windowed version, it comes up with a cross in "Lock Aspect Ratio". So that again is locked "by default" so that still doesn't work. What I get of it, is that TT here wants to have a special entry for my window and its size. Wrong wrong wrong, because without all the fuzz it works perfectly already, except for FFDShow which needs the unchecking of the Lock.

Headstart.

[Vern Dias]

Peter, I'm sorry but we are not going to go around in circles like last time. This is my final attempt at explaining this. You may choose to accept it (or not).

I touch nothing, I set nothing, I just hit an Unlock button and then all is okay. Why ?

Because the lock button assumes non-square pixels. The AR of the pixels is determined by NTSC/PAL disc format and the non-anamorphic/anamorphic flags as I stated in my previous post.

Again, as previously stated, TT calculates the ratio of the image based on the non-square pixels. With the "Lock Aspect Ratio" checked it will then force the aspect ratio to be correct (to preserve round wheels, etc) regardless of what you set the X and Y size to. However this calculation assumes that the pixels coming off the DVD have the correct PAR, which yours do not because some part of ffdshow is changing them.

With TT in a window it still doesn't work

Actually in windowed mode, the entire AR editor function and AR selection is disabled. TT assumes that the PAR it is receiving is the proper one for the DVD format being played. If you try to select the AR editor when in windowed mode, you will find that it is greyed out.

That means that if ffdshow changes the PAR, the image in the window is going to be sized incorrectly. TT provides complete AR control in full screen mode. That is TT's main function in life.

TT has elected not to allow independent stretching of window height and width when displaying video in a window.

Possibly, Andrew could provide this function (better yet, an option to enable/disable it) if he wants to and enough people request the change.

My opinion is that the ability to play media in a smaller window is secondary, and certainly doesn't require ffdshow processing to be used.

Again, in the end it comes down to the use of ffdhow that causes the PAR to be incorrect, rendering the Auto AR calculation in TT to be incorrect. If I recall a conversation with Andrew a few years back, thats why there is a button to disable this function. It wasn't there in an early release when I reported this issue and was added by Andrew specifically to allow the use of ffdshow.

Vern

[PeterSt]

Vern, let me first emphasize once more that your efforts (also beyond this thread) are appreciated much.
Having said that, I want to add that it is very difficult to understand you. For me it is anyway. Possibly caused by me, you seem to operate from a given point of operation, which seems to drive you in (not) understanding the other . Also, it doesn't help a person like me to explain things via another route than the route I brought to you. I just "won't" understand. One example (and I'll leave it with that) is :

You explain to me about the PAR, and say "probably FFDShow changes the PAR". Probably ...
I tell you about the 1.25 being equal to my resolution, there something going wrong "obviously" (to me) and you never come back to that. That leaves me with your "probably" against my "obviously". You still can be right though, but you won't get it by explaning better how pixels can end up non-squared (no matter how I do like the explanation by itself ).

Communication like this is fragile anyway and one small piece not read, or not written, can let things end up in ... well, circles.

In trying to explain things even better (you really do a good job at it ) I think you miss the point. The point about users who end up in problems. Problems about having to understand your piece of the manual (this thread) whereas they do not know yet that a 16:9 screen shouldn't be filled with the 2.40 movie. The point about changing one small piece of stupid default, after which no one will have a problem anymore, apart of those with anamorphic lenses or strange habits. Somehow you didn't spent one line about what would be wrong with that (my suggestions about it). Somehow you only explain what is right. And I tried to ask explicitly ...

I'm not commenting your way of operating. I just ask a question and like an answer to that. That your way of dealing with that causes me (and hopefully others) to understand better, is just a very good thing. No complaints there and highly appreciated, already for the time you spent.

Since you partly brought me the knowledge of what's going on here anyway, I now can't and won't do anything else than advise people what to do in this area as how it is in my mind. I obviously will do this until you or someone else explains to me otherwise. Each thread you possibly chime in and refer to this thread or otherwise explain how you think it should be. Nice.

Vern, by the end I tried to tell how one can get rid of this AR problem. You never said I was wrong. I asked you for examples to let go wrong overhere. Maybe you even think I'm right. I don't know obviously.

I will let you have the last word on this, and I sure will read it and try to understand it. To avoid the circles, I won't respond anymore. Not because I don't like to, but just because it may become annoying for readers, those circles.


Kind of offtopic is about your remark that the AR Editor is disabled for use in a (TT) window. It's just enabled by means of Ctrl-E. That it does strange things on choosing a preset, yes, I saw that (it's full screen data only).
Ontopic again is though, that apparently we talk right along eachother for miles because my solving the wrong AR for FFDShow when I started this thread was about unchecking the AR Lock in windowed mode. Also, the screencopies were all made without leaving windowed mode. So it becomes worse. You say its disabled, you say it can't work and shouldn't work, and I say it just works which doesn't go into your mind because it's disabled. Well ... that's what I mean by fragile.
What you forgot to pickup is that I only said that my hands-in-pockets solution (changeing the defaults) for fullscreen, doesn't work in windowed mode. Just that, period. You don't watch movies in a window, I don't, nobody does. It just occurred to me that it didn't work there, which can be annoying anyway because of testing in general.

As long as the default for Lock Aspect Ratio stays at "Locked" by TT itself, I will advise users with AR problems and FFDShow to find a decent editor (not Notepad) and change all the "1"s into "0"s in their "Aspect Ratios.dat" files at the end of each line. Of course this must be about "normal" users without anamorphic lenses.
When lateron they have problems again, they should re-check the file for "1"s being there (emerged from adding a resolution, as you explained).

I hope this is such a wrong advise that at last I will get to know why.

Thanks again,
Peter



PS: A little nagging, but possibly too confusing for others :

3. There is a file created by TT on install called TheaterTek\TheaterTek DVD 2.0\Data\Aspect Ratios.dat. This file contains the information that is used to control aspect ratios. Here is the file immediately after install:

// TheaterTek Aspect Ratios
"16:9" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0
"Letterbox" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 0
"4:3" 0 0 1280 1024 0 0 1280 1024 0
"16:9 Pan&Scan" 0 0 1280 1024 0 152 1280 872 0

I don't think you meant the "0"s to be there. They should be "1"s "immediately after install" (in my file they are ). If so, maybe update your post concerned.

[Vern Dias]

It's just enabled by means of Ctrl-E.

That is a bug. Looks like Andrew is not checking for windowed mode on the Ctrl-E. Right click on the window, select Aspect Ratio from the drop down menu, and try to use the AR editor or select an AR. It isn't allowed. This is how it should be. I'll ask Andrew to consider disabling Ctrl-E in windowed mode.

As long as the default for Lock Aspect Ratio stays at "Locked" by TT itself, I will advise users with AR problems and FFDShow to find a decent editor (not Notepad) and change all the "1"s into "0"s in their "Aspect Ratios.dat" files at the end of each line. Of course this must be about "normal" users without anamorphic lenses.

Nothing wrong with this advice (except the part about excluding users with anamorphic lenses). Anyone with ffdshow and/or anamorphic lenses should uncheck the Lock AR button.

However if the user has played one or more DVD's, your advice will be NOT fix the issue the next time the user plays a DVD that was played before he made the change you suggest. Why? Because every single DVD that has been played has already had a custom AR with the lock AR flag on stored in the \TheaterTek\TheaterTek DVD 2.0\Data\DVD Info.dat. And, that is a binary file that you can not edit!

That is why the Lock AR needs to be unchecked BEFORE you play any DVD's following the procedure I outlined in my first post. And that is why I try to tell the entire story, and why I make the recommendations I make.

You challenge me, and promulgate incorrect or incomplete information, based your opinion of what you see in your environment, often with an incomplete understanding of how things work.

As far as the 1.25 resolution AR, I already explained this. As a refresher, remember that the AR of the resolution has no definite connection to the actual physical AR of the display I have a monitor that takes 1280x1024 which might imply that the screen AR is 1.25:1. It's not. It is 15.5" x 12" which is 1.2916:1. That same monitor also accepts a 1024x768 signal which is 1.33:1. For that matter, it also accepts 1280x720. In any case the image will actually miss filling the screen in a vertical or horizontal direction. In the case of 1280x720, TT will assume it is working with a 16x9 display, but is actually not. All of these cases would benefit by turning off the Lock AR option.

However on a 4x3 TV using a 4x3 AR or a 16x8 TV using a 16x9 AR, turning off Lock AR will no longer protect the user from distorting the original AR of the source and winding up with egg shaped wheels. For the average user, this is exactly what the Lock AR option is trying to prevent.

Vern

[PeterSt]

I said I wouldn't respond, but I'll allow myself anyway to thank you.
There's more to it than I imagined, or better, TT can arrange for more than I thought. Bit pitty that things can turn out so complicated for the user.

However if the user has played one or more DVD's, your advice will be NOT fix the issue the next time the user plays a DVD that was played before he made the change you suggest. Why? Because every single DVD that has been played has already had a custom AR with the lock AR flag on stored in the \TheaterTek\TheaterTek DVD 2.0\Data\DVD Info.dat. And, that is a binary file that you can not edit!

I didn't look into it yet, but why is it so necessary that this particular data is stored in this file ? Please remember, I never found something wrong with ARs so TT apparently is able to auto-set all, which it can do the next time again. I btw don't ask for an answer, but just wonder and I'll find out things myself from here.

So Vern, yes, I challenged you, and now I think I understand all -or enough anyway- of it.

I just wonder how people with today existing 16:9 plasmas with 1024x1024 resolution (and thus far from square pixels) will deal with all aspects of this. This is about your last part :

In any case the image will actually miss filling the screen in a vertical or horizontal direction. In the case of 1280x720, TT will assume it is working with a 16x9 display, but is actually not. All of these cases would benefit by turning off the Lock AR option.

but I do not see how TT attacks the aspect of non-square pixels of the physical display, the same way as FFDShow outputting them non-squared. IOW, what to do when both cases come to you together ? Can that be done / solved ?

Peter

[TheaterTek]

Peter,
It's really not all that complicated.

If your physical display has non-square pixels, and by that I mean your TV/screen measurements come to a 16:9 aspect ratio, BUT your desktop dimensions are 1024x1024 for example, then:
- You MUST train TheaterTek to understand your AR. This is easily done by bringing up the AR Editor, and for EACH of the 4 pre-defined AR's, uncheck the AR Lock button and adjust so that the image fits the screen correctly and press Save. As there is some confusion over what these 4 AR's mean, let me explain.
a) 16:9. This is the AR reported by a DVD when it is playing an anamorphic movie usually in the main Title.
b) 4:3. The AR reported when playing for example a TV series which was not filmed in widescreen.
c) 16:9 Pan/Scan. The AR reported by a DVD when it is usually inside a menu, such as the Root or Title menu.
d) Letterbox: The AR reported by non-anamorphic DVD's.

Similarly, REGARDLESS of the comments above, if you use FFDShow, then it is automatically introducing non-square pixels into the equation f you follow the 2x resize. Again, for each of the 4 pre-defined AR's you need to uncheck the Lock AR box and resize accordingly.

As far as files are concerned, any AR's you create or adjust on a global basis are stored in the human readable file Aspect Ratios.dat in the TheaterTek Data folder. If you adjust an AR for a SPECIFIC DVD, it is stored along with other DVD specific settings in the DVD Info.dat file.

Finally, when using TT in Windowed mode, the rules and settings used by TT are ignored.

Andrew

[Vern Dias]

I do not see how TT attacks the aspect of non-square pixels of the physical display, the same way as FFDShow outputting them non-squared. IOW, what to do when both cases come to you together ? Can that be done / solved ?

It doesn't matter where the PAR is modified or what the displays PAR is, as long as you follow the steps above to train TT for the environment, all will be fine.

However, I will add one more thought to what Andrew stated (and then some rambling):

The average TT user only uses one display resolution and one display. For this user, Andrews simple rules above apply and TT will work just fine.

Judging from your AR file, you either use or have used 9 different resolutions on your system so far.

In short, much of the complexity of the issue (Not the actual issue) you have were brought on in part by your complex environment. Having used 9 different resolutions could all be for valid reasons, or not. I'm not judging one way or the other.

Most TT users that have complex, difficult to solve, problems have them because they have installed codec packs, or another program that has hijacked a DX9 module or filter, or don't have a clean OS, SP2, or DX9, install, or have video and/or audio driver/HW issues, or have other HW issues, like a bad memory location, a chip set that doesn't fully comply with video standards or any one of a hundred other very obscure problems.

You have criticized me in the past for recommending a "Nuke and Pave" approach to solving some of these wierd issues. I hope you see now that what may appear simple on the surface is almost never simple in reality.

I invested over 4 hours of my time in composing my responses, you probably invested the same or more.

In reality, a "Nuke and Pave" used with the following instructions would have cleanly solved your problem and established that TT AR control was operating properly in less than an hour.

If your physical display has non-square pixels, and by that I mean your TV/screen measurements come to a 16:9 aspect ratio, BUT your desktop dimensions are 1024x1024 for example, then:
- You MUST train TheaterTek to understand your AR. This is easily done by bringing up the AR Editor, and for EACH of the 4 pre-defined AR's, uncheck the AR Lock button and adjust so that the image fits the screen correctly and press Save.

TT would have then worked with no AR issues..... Until you added ffdshow, decided to try a different resolution, or made some other change to your environment.

But, at least, you would have had a clean properly operating OS & TT install. A simple Ghost or Drive Image at this point would have given you a working reference to return to and would give you a good shot at understanding exactly which of your changes created issues.

This has always been my approach to solving complex issues with a computer, and it has worked well for me for over 20 years. It is even more appropriate for complex operating environments, and media playback using Microsoft's DX9 environment certainly qualifies as a complex environment.

On a related topic, many have been reporting issues with the new NVidia beta 91.28 drivers. I haven't seen any of the issues, thay are working great for me.

However, my system is a single display, single resolution system, not because I don't have other displays I could connect, but because I have found over the years the most stable system is a Pentium based system with NVidia video cards using single display running single resolution. It is also a fairly recent (6 months) rebuild from a clean install. (I ugraded the mobo, so I took the opportunity to do a clean MCE-SP2 install).

The last time I have had any kind of issue with my system running TT, was well over a year ago. My HTPC's stability compares favorably with any stand alone DVD player in existence.

But, to achieve this stability, I needed to make certain compromises and live within certain contraints, which I accept happily, knowing that I will not be embarrased in front of guests by having a problem watching a DVD or WMV-HD movie.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Vern

[PeterSt]

Just a brainstorm, not a renewed whining to another person !

Andrew, by now I'm sure you (both) are right out there. Sadly you introduced an in between the lines sneaky process :

This is easily done by bringing up the AR Editor, and for EACH of the 4 pre-defined AR's, uncheck the AR Lock button and adjust so that the image fits the screen correctly and press Save.

Note I put this out of the 1024x1024 context, hence bring it to the FFDshow thing again. Because : [quote]... if you use FFDShow, then it is automatically introducing non-square pixels into the equation f you follow the 2x resize. Again, for each of the 4 pre-defined AR's you need to uncheck the Lock AR box and resize accordingly.

I still wonder whether you know that "adjust" and "resize" isn't necessary at all ? The unlock does it (even in Windowed mode).

With the by now so many words spent by Vern on this, I think I understand though. That is, apart from the COMBINATION of 16:9@1024x1024 and FFDShow making 1.25 of any AR IMO because I do the resize on my 1.25 AR TFT (I wonder whether FFDShow makes 1.78 of that on my 1920x1080 LCD -> have to test that).

So is it simple ? YES !! with a normal square pixel screen it is. Without FFDShow it sure is ! But ... WITH FFDshow and normal square pixels on the screen it is NOT according to the outlay combined with the way TT per default works. To summerize my for sure misconception about this briefly :

- If by now you find out what to do as per this thread, you are to late. Or :
- Throw away the file with DVD AR data, which is implied to be a bad thing (IMHO not at all, but okay).
- Right after a clean install of TT one should prepare for ARs (never mind how for now). Don't do it too late, otherwise you'll be lost.
- In another -unrelated- dimension, train TT how to go about with FFDShow and resizing. That too, should be in the beginning after install.
- At introducing a new resolution, TT has to learn again.

I quit this quite black/white list (but could go on) because for me there's misconception enough in there (I bet). Why ? well, because in my superspecial situation of having all dvds one could watch in a years' time I never had problems and I didn't know this thread. Note though that I tweaked one little thing : I set all "Lock AR Ratio" to Not Locked as if it were the default
1. After Install
2. After a new resolution
3. After whatever it is I dead in a years' time because I didn't even look at the data itself.

So indeed, it's simple !!!
But not today when this default is Locked. Not for me with my superspecial environment. Not.

Please note that it looks like we're back to square 1 again, and that I DO NOT urge for answers. Like said before, I think I understand enough in order to deal with it. In this post I didn't deal with Vern's exceptions, which can exist obviously.
One thing is new now, I think. And that's about the training of TT about the proper ARs. I'm sure this is simple again but since I

a. can't test 16:9@1024x1024 because I don't have such a display
b. won't (!!) test the other stuff because it's not necessary

I do wonder how this goes in practice. Please let's combine with the FFDShow thing, because that will be practice in, say, 45% of cases with those having the 1024x1024 display;

A. Adjust with the AR Editor buttons and physically measure until the size fits what's on the box (AR implied) ?
B. Additionally, measure per each of the 4 "native" ARs (Letterbox etc.) ?
C. Additionally do that per not already registered AR (1.78, 1.85, 2.35. 2.40, 2.75, etc.).
D. Additionally do that per resolution ?
E. Additionally do that per display with same res though different size pixels ?
F. Additionally do that per other upscaling factor in FFDShow ?

If you quit answering Yes at B I'm okay. I'm afraid though that at F you still say Yes.
It still might be simple as long as one understands but it's unmanageable just the same.
Is that bad ? not if it's just the truth and nothing can be done about it (maybe a special function to mass edit the AR data ca help).
But back to my point again, if all could start with just auto-saving data in the AR file with status Unlocked, it would avoid the FFDShow dimension at least (if I'm wrong at this, never mind !! let it be brainstorming for that matter).

Pieces of the puzzle might come from this too :

If you adjust an AR for a SPECIFIC DVD, it is stored along with other DVD specific settings in the DVD Info.dat file.

which seems to say that I have to do that explicitly for a DVD ? At least that's what I found and told in (I think) the first post of this thread. IMHO Vern's relation with "do this right after install" disappears, which makes it waaaaay more workable, liveable, understandable (for me) and even logical.
Not being sure whether you indeed mean this, this now has this other implication (sorry to be IT knowledged a bit ) and that is that when I save the AR data for the wrong reason, I'll be stuck with it forever in the DVD data. With different kind of words that's what's Vern expressing, and here's my point again : for FFDShow this is as far as I can tell unncessary. Defaulting everything to Unlocked is sufficient to never have to Save (hence implictly or explicitly load) AR data in order let FFDShow have the proper AR (for unknown material) *and* without destroying non-FFDShow stuff.
Never to forget Vern's exceptions of course, but 95% (number defined by me) of cases don't have them.

One remark of Vern is singing in my head though (I hope I quote correctly), and that is that once the AR is unlocked (by default) *and* something special is about with the material, the original AR data will be lost. Lost, "forever" in TT, but (as I think by know) based on the fact that all dvd data will be stored regardless, which might not be regardless at all (and then Vern's according expression isn't a problem either).

As far as files are concerned, any AR's you create or adjust on a global basis are stored in the human readable file Aspect Ratios.dat in the TheaterTek Data folder. If you adjust an AR for a SPECIFIC DVD, it is stored along with other DVD specific settings in the DVD Info.dat file.

So the last sentence quoted again, but now with the context of the one preceeding it;
Again here's the logic of the "per DVD" overruling global settings, and that's good. However, for me this logic cannot be found within TT itself. It's IMO one and the same process, a bit depending on what you do in which sequence. E.g. I created the AR01 in order just to have "an" AR setting without Lock, and since I assumed it needed Save this data was saved for the dvd playing at that moment. Also note that I looked for this "global" setting of one AR without Lock doing my job, but that I could not find the AR Editor without first playing a dvd, that implying the just said ...
Btw, by now I wonder what will happen when I insert this dvd when another display and res is attached than when I pressed Save for my AR (the data in there just being rubbish because all I / it needed was the AR Unlock).

Oh well, simple things can be made complex I guess.
Again, let this be more of a brainstorm, i.e. no answers needed. Maybe the Yes/No answers to the A u/i F will be useful to further understanding.

Peter

[PeterSt]

On the danger of braking all records of longs posts within one thread which really nobody can ever read anymore, I'll chime in your twist Vern :

Originally Posted by Vern Dias

In short, much of the complexity of the issue (Not the actual issue) you have were brought on in part by your complex environment. Having used 9 different resolutions could all be for valid reasons, or not. I'm not judging one way or the other.

Haha, yes you do ...

About my resolutions ... you don't want to know (ever heard of DVI accepting different resolutions than HDMI ? well, I do now, and there's even LOGIC in it ! ).

So yes Vern, I know there's much much more under the hood than what's visible. Also, I know your expression "you think such and so because in fact you don't understand". I know me ...
Also there's the "education" thing and for that matter, I know me too. No problem nowhere;

On speaking terms, yes, you are perfectly right in advising nuke and pave, where else it would require 100 pages of explaining how to go about. Or possibly (like you imply a bit) : you wouldn't even know where to begin yourself.
But as said elsewhere, there still is this other method, indeed requiering a bit more (typing) time and which could look more friendly the same time.
No, I won't argue the both methods, but the funny thing is, they do conflict;

If first, someone like me is ignorant enough to not nuke and pave, therewith having his own responseablilities to deal with other's data to solve a problem, it's more or less forbidden not to hand this data.
The other way around, if someone is capable of nuke and pave only, it's forbidden to stress him with processing beyond his capabilities.

The stupid thing is, that the last mentioned group statistically most probably has the smallest problem in absolute sense, because they wouldn't know where to begin (describe the problem) anyway. So most often with a little pushing the problem can be solved.
Obviously this is different with the much experienced, because a. they tried all before they called, and b. nuke and pave is a stupid solution.

Now who needs the nuke and pave ? right, the experienced.
I see a conflict in there.

All is besides that when nuke and pave is applied indeed, the originator of the problem (say TT, me (!)) won't learn a thing.

So anyway, there's just some friction between the methods hence there's some friction between you and me. Not talking about me, it's you that IMO you don't deserve any friction at all, just because it is your time and your knowledge and your good-willing.

The danger is though (and I referred to that in this thread) that because of the two ways of operating, one (that's you) doesn't ask the question and the other (would be me) doesn't tell the data because he doesn't know it's relevant (or doesn't know it exists for that matter).

Your example of the resolutions as in my file (including negative stuff of which I really don't know how it's got there) is a good one on this subject. The talking along eachother for miles, as I said, was called fragile by me elsewhere.

Nuke and pave goes along with frequent restore points, and although I make them, I kind of don't know how to use them. Or better, when to use them. My day exists of downloading/installing, say, 3 pieces of software on average, uninstalling a bit less I guess, and all in order to solve a "challenge". Like I said / implied elsewhere, way too much to re-do at the time you find something wrong, and way to much to make restore points all the time (I'm so many hours short a day already ).

Also, some people (like me) have way too much stuff on their HTPC for beginnings, that incurring for more problems. In the end though, all is HTPC related, but more experiencing on the same PC as watching the movie (how to watch the result of an experiment else ?).

And so there's people carrying the data of 4 generations of PC's onto the current one. I am one of them. A fresh install would take me a month to recollect all the software and settings (note that 90% is audio related with my system).

So I'm a stupid that refuses, so far, to perform a restore. Never, really never it turned out that I needed one, because in all cases there was some caveat that would have reoccurred after a restore (that it then would have shown 10 times faster as trying to find it in the live system is another thing ).
It's just what you're used to I guess, and the person who is used to finding the problem, possibly can very fast determine whether he can (and should !) solve the problem without the restore.

Anyway, with a little understanding we can all live.
Peter

[Vern Dias]

Btw, by now I wonder what will happen when I insert this dvd when another display and res is attached than when I pressed Save for my AR (the data in there just being rubbish because all I / it needed was the AR Unlock).

When you are adjusting the default AR's initially, make sure you have SELECTED the AR you want to adjust before changing anything. That way, when you click save it will not be saving the current media settings, but the default setting that you are changing (16x9, etc).

I think you may be in trouble when you save a specific title's custom AR and then change the resolution. I believe the title's settings are saved as x any y coordinates. These are no longer valid with the new resolution and will not be applied at the new resolution. So you will use the appropriate default AR settings for that specific type (16x9, 4:3, etc.) of DVD.

I don't know of any player (including Zoom Player) that can do custom resolutions that will handle this scenario.

Vern

[TheaterTek]

DVD specific AR's are also associated with a given desktop resolution, so changing the desktop resolution will void, i.e. disable a custom AR stored for that particular movie.

There's nothing wrong with having multiple desktop resolutions, TT will just keep on re-creating the standard 4 AR's each time you do this for a new output resolution, and will only load the AR's for the current output resolution.

I still don't follow this long discussion. As I outlined above it's pretty straightforward. The FFDShow settings should follow the guide at the top of the forum.

Andrew

[joe_chip]

I've followed the guides and read this thread from start to finish, but I still have a problem (other than the headache form all the reading).

The problem is odd. It seems the black bars at top and bottom of the screen are consistently too big. With LOTR which is 2.35:1. I've worked out that the image height should be 40.85cm by dividing 96 by 2.35 (screen is 96cm wide). This is also cinsistent with the output I get from my standalone DVD player.
Trouble is, that isn't what I'm getting. The image height is only 40cm.
I'm using ffdshow and I've set up theatertek as suggested when using ffdshow, but the only way to get a screen height of 40.85 for a 2.35:1 movie is to adjust the aspect ratio in Theatertek until the blue markers are well off the screen. And I have to measure the height manually with a tape measure which would be a pain to have to do for each setting, and more so if I have to do it for each movie.
This also applies to the other resolutions I've tried as far as I can tell, but I've not played with them quite as much.
Am I doing this right, or am I missing something?